Leg District 60 GOP Debate

This was held on the fourth floor of the UVU library. Below is what I typed, a lot of it's paraphrasing as I'm not that fast a typer so, you know, it is what it is. It was recorded on camera by someone.  Brad Daw, Dana Layton and Jaco Siebach are your candidates.

1) 63 bills passed last year affecting public education. Is this micromanaging?



Dana Layton

LAYTON: Depends on the bills. If it's giving more power back to locals, great. Educational issues are best dealt w/ by parents and teachers at local level. That's the way our pub edu was intended to be run.

DAW: I've gone to many town-hall meetings, and many people tell me, "Can you do this and this and this?" and I say go to your school board. We talk about our fed govt too intrusive, so we can't be hypocritical and try to micromanage at state level. John Valentine passed charter-school bill that said if bond can be paid back, we'll put u under state umbrella. That was good thing. It reduces overhead.



Brad Daw

SIEBACH: I'm an educator myself, teach middle school. I appreciate the local control of education. It's parents' duty to educate child. Parents ability to choose where and how for education. I know my students, which ones struggle, which ones do well. Micromanagement destroys anything - education, industry.

2) What is the difference between a convention to propose amendments and a constitutional convention?

DAW: Alexander Hamilton said there can be no comparison. James Madison said once the Constitution is ratified, you can have a convention limited to a few topics. I would never support a Constitutional convention. As said by our FF, there is a reason on occasion for states to push back against fed govt. There are a # of those who concerned, but give me a teeny bit that says, "Ok, instead of 'no way', think of the idea that it's OK under certain circumstances, my doors are open."



Jacob Siebach

SIEBACH: In history of US, all Amendments proposed have been proposed in Congress, and most came from states saying they want it, and none with const. convention. If we as states say we want this passed, we can have our legislators do it. Legislation that says this is how a convention will be done, Congress wouldn't be bound.

LAYTON: I'm against a const. convention even under the guise of Amendment convention. Legal opinion is split on whether Const Conv could be controlled, or Article 5 convention be controlled. Even if small chance that our Const could be changed, we shouldn't risk it. I would like to see the idea die. Not worth the risk, even if .5% risk.

DAW: 1787 convention, the controlling language came from state calls, it allowed delegates to do what they did. I find it amazing that we say FF were inspired and then they broke their own document. I can point to 4 different places Madison was for it. Balanced Budget amendment wanted by states but Congress refuses.

SIEBACH: You can change rules during convention, so there's nothing to stop the delegates once to change order of operation, intention of convention, etc. That happens on every level of government.

LAYTON: I again agree w/ Jacob, but focus isn't whether convention could be controlled, but opinions are split, like Rex Lee said it would be a danger. Madison said no good would come of it, Franklin said we can't do better.

3) What is your position of safety laws vs. personal responsibility (i.e. seatbelts)?

SIEBACH: Our govt couldn't exist w/o a moral people. I believe in personal responsibility. If we have someone who says I want to pass a law to keep someone else safe, that takes away from everyone else's freedom. Socialism is done in the name of keeping everyone safe. When it comes down to it, is it worth giving up our liberty? I don't think it is.

LAYTON: I'm in the middle on this. We get on a slippery slope of parentalism, with laws micromanaging our behavior. Texting w/ driving. I hate it, but we don't need a law, becuz erratic driving is erratic driving. It doesn't matter what the cause was, it's the end result, same with hate crimes. As to moral people, many would question how moral society really is. The more immoral a society is, the more liberties we have to give up our liberties. Freedom trumps everything else.

DAW: I was in transportation committee. We had a rep bring forth a helmet law, to require bikers to wear helmets. A group said "Don't you tell us when to wear helmets." Same with seatbelts for adults. I draw line with infants in carseat. If you're old enough to take care of yourself, God bless you. That is the principle we want to govern against.

-- Moderator apologizes and realizes there were no intros.

LAYTON: I have never aspired to be politician. Thomas Paine said those who reap the blessings of freedom must go through the fatigue of supporting it. My youngest is moving out next year so I have the time to serve you. I don't believe in individual mandate. I want to fund education w/o raising taxes. I'm strongly pro-life, I keep and bear arms. Shouldn't be amnesty for illegal aliens, but the state has the right to manage the people within its borders. I think we need fewer laws, not more.

DAW: I want to thank everyone for coming. It says a lot you'll take to discuss politics, says a lot about you. I'm running for fifth term. UVU is mine. Privileged to be here. In coming nights, I would like to talk to you in individual or small groups. What's beautiful about caucus system, what I hope never goes away, is the ability to sit down w/ 120 delegates and talk about politics.

SIEBACH: I'm 30, some say I look 20, I have a wife and 4 kids. My degree's in physics. I teach middle school; I'm a small business owner; I'm an Eagle scout. Most of my brothers and father are military. I am for a small govt. When you keep bolting things onto software, it gets so unwieldy it becomes impossible to manage it. Small govt allows people to grow, innovate, expand. I believe in the family. 16th Amendment has got to go.

4) UVU is underfunded compared nationally and locally. What will you do to rectify this problem?

LAYTON: As soon as I started talking to delegates and learned of UVU's plight, the #'s show compelling story of need and inequity. I support change, but want to be a catalyst for change. I know everyone has a violin to play and a story to tell. But UVU is the 4th largest open-enrollment colleges in the country. Education stimulates the economy around us. I feel passionate about funding for this institution.

DAW: What you're seeing is a university that's busting at the seams. We committed $4 million to equity funding, of that UVU got $1.5 mil. That's every year. I moved to make sure that happened. My goal in another term is to chair committee that'd give more to UVU. We need to build a few more building to accommodate the students (I see the moderators nodding).

SIEBACH: Higher education is essential, not just to us but the US. You have to specialize becuz things get so complex, u have to have that education. UVU only gets 40% of funds from state, others get it in the 60%. It's wonderful that students could graduate with Assoc. degree.

LAYTON: I want to clarify something a little deceptive. When Brad says committee, he's on sub-committee, not actual committee. It's riding Sen. Hatch coattails to say "You have to send me back becuz I've been there so long." In a state w/ a supermajority, every rep would fight for UVU.

DAW: We have the amount of money we're supposed to spend, and our committee's job is to prioritize the spending.

SIEBACH: I'll save my rebuttal.

5) What will you do to assure UVU gets more funding? (Guess where this debate is taking place.)

DAW: Barring a catastrophe, the $50 million building planned for UVU will happen.

SIEBACH: I would support anything that continues to fund it. We know this school needs more building and office space, esp. when u consider how far behind it is in accommodating those who want to come here.

LAYTON: Any decision-maker is supposed to learn that if you put $2.5 million into something, it shouldn't be a factor in deciding whether or not the $50 million should be spent on the building. We spent $13 million on a lawsuit over the highway project, but that saved us $200 million. Things happen behind the scenes and I would actively shepherd them along.

6) Did you agree with Gov. Herbert's veto of HB363 (reproductive education bill), why or why not?

SIEBACH: No. Marriage improves families. This is not an issue of biology vs. sex ed. Biology can teach all about organs. This bill prevents graphic videos or images that happen in other states. Teaching about contraceptives or homosexuality is my right as parent, which is where true teaching should be done.

LAYTON: I support Gov's veto of bill for two reasons, neither to do with sex. Issues like that belong at local level. I don't need 104 legislators to be telling the districts what they can or can't do. What happens in classroom depends greatly on teacher. The unintended consequence was it would have killed concurrant enrollment. They couldn't get credit at colleges but they are not abstinance-only institutions. When we go about trying to legislate these particular things, we have to be so careful. There are groups who'd like to be explicit. I don't think 16-yr-olds should even know what their preferences are, but I support the veto.

DAW: I'm trying to draw the line. I don't support the veto, I supported the bill. They gave us the data and unsurprisingly enough, the regions where STDs are lowest were school districts that teach abstinence-only. One constituent had a compromise where you could teach contraception in the confines of family planning within a committed marriage. I'd be for that.

SIEBACH: It's not a biology question. It doesn't factor in with concurrent enrollment.

LAYTON: I was talking to Terry Olsen, BYU PhD, he said neither side has very much to crow about on this bill becuz they approach it from behavioral standpoint. When u teach relational issues, "if u were born tomorrow, what would u want your circumstances to be" that's more effective way to internalize principles.

7) What can you do as legislator to stimulate economy in Utah?

LAYTON: Govt can't do a whole lot to create jobs. They can do shovel-ready jobs, but the best thing they can do is get out of the way, lower regulations, etc. There's risk in trying to build a business. That's different between me and my opponents. They're programmers. I've been earning a living for 30 years w/o a paycheck.

DAW: Let me offer 3 things. We can do more to stifle economic prosperity. 1) Educated workforce. We want good jobs. We've attracted Adobe here, we've had homegrown business like Merritt Medical. 2) Limited tax environment for businesses. Taxes are necessary, but we want to make sure it's limited as possible. We have 5% flat business tax. 3) It costs much less to incorporate here than other states.

SIEBACH: Govt's role is to protect rights, not regulate. I've taken those financial risks. We need to continue to foster business, large and small. I grew up partly in Delaware, and so many corporations go there becuz of their friendly regulations.

8) Explain stance on illegal immigration and your vote on HB116.

DAW: Upfront, any new illegal immigration legislation we pass is to be the mop for the mess that the fed level left us. I supported HB116, I also supported enforcement provisions. There's identity theft, there's drug trafficking. I would love to beef up enforcement. There's a class of people here who are working. Let's have punishment fit the crime. Deporting someone away from their family to a country they may have never called home in their life doesn't fit.

SIEBACH: I support many provisions in HB116. I disgree with the amnesty part. If they commit the crime, they should go home. if we have good immigration, we want people to come here. Those people have a vested interest in this country. We have to take measures even if fed govt won't. Let's make provisions so they have to go home.

LAYTON: I'm not sure about the Constitutionality of HB116, but I support states rights to manage bodies within the boundaries. It seems like it allows illegal immigration to step to the front of the line. it's completely unfair to them to give a stamp of approval. "What do you think about immigration? What do you feel?" What i think and feel are two different things. I think the law should be followed, but I feel compassion for those people.

9) Would you ever see an instance where you'd raise taxes to balance the budget.

SIEBACH: This question is contradictory. Taxes are your accounts receivable. To balance the budget, you make do with what you have. What if we could save tax money, so that we could get to where we don't have to take any more federal money.

LAYTON: Balancing the budget can work either way. Balancing is balancing. That's the danger of Balanced Budget Amendment; there could be federally mandated tax increase. Sen. Bennett was against it. We need to live within our means. I feel fortunate to have had good financial advice.

DAW: In 8 years in SLC, I have yet to see reason to increase taxes, in fact we've lowered them several times. We put $11 million back in the rainy-day fund. We can't put off public school for a year. By putting $ back in, it keeps us from being in situation where we're out of funds. I agree, I think Balanced Budget Amendment is a gimmick.

Audience Q&A

Michael Wilson - Fed govt has ignored states rights. What can state legislature do to bring back states rights?

DAW: We can do interstate compacts. Medicaid budget has doubled. If that keeps increasing, then education has to be cut. The other way is to seek redress in calling for a convention. If we're serious about pushing back, and u have a better idea than the FF, I'll jump all over it.

SIEBACH: I agree with taking back our lands.

LAYTON: States do not have rights, people have rights. But the balance of power is way out of whack. I'm not an extremist. I'm a down-the-middle conservative. States need to assert their rights.

DAW: If we don't use interstate compacts, we take another tool off the table.

(Old Man) - Govt derives all power from the people. The fed govt is saying the states do not have the right to control their own borders. Does that mean I cannot defend myself?

LAYTON: That's why 2nd amendment is important. It creates balance of power. We delegate that responsibility to law enforcement. We saw with Katrina, lawlessless can take over in the blink of an eye. State sovereignty has been overlooked.

DAW: I agree with u on principle. We have life, libery and the pursuit of happiness. Right after that, it says govt are formed to protect those rights "with the consent of the governed." I supported bill that said if you're in your own home, you're presumed not guilty.

SIEBACH: I essentially resonate what they said. I believe in Bill of Rights. You should be able to defend your family. You should be able to protect someone else too.

Kevin Aston, Pres of Tech Educators of Utah - What's your opinion of teachers associations?

SIEBACH: Associations are fine. Each person should research and look at things. I am an educator, I love teaching my physics class.

LAYTON: I think assocations are at the root of the 1st Amendment. We have the right to pool our efforts, gather and speak our mind. Lobbyists are there to educate legislators. i don't have any ill will about associations. When it crosses over to extortion and force, and I've had experience with that in other cities. I'm proud to work in right-to-work state.

DAW: Associations have a place. I used to be in an Engineers association. When a union tries to protect someone's job, I have a problem w/ that.

Doug Tollis - Career politicians?

DAW: At the end of 8 years, if you look at it in DC years, it's quite young. It's part-time legislature. We don't make very much. There tends to be natural turnover. If someone's willing to advocate for their constituents, good.

SIEBACH: The Founders didn't put term limits on anything. I have no plan to be a full-time politician. If this person is representing me, let them represent me.

LAYTON: I don't aspire to be a career politician; I have other careers. I want to make a contribution. I think the FF inteneded the people would go and serve and then go back home. The idea of new passion and new blood in government is good for government.

George Patlin - My children are about to enter K-12. Education is road to prosperity. Utah is 46th in nation on what we spend per child per year. Brad, you've been outspoken on we're spending too much on education. << DAW: Not true!>>

LAYTON: I would love to see education funded at a much higher level, but Utah spends a larger percentage of its budget on education than most. Utah teachers do a great job stretching dollars. i went to public education. The building was awful, but the teachers are great. I don't think money's the only answer.

DAW: I'm not sure where that's coming from. Education has always been at the front of the line. This last year when we had extra money, it went to education. It's an ongoing and sacred education. What's pushing it out is we have a Medicaid budget that's pushing it out.

SIEBACH: Going off of that, we need to get off the federal dime and their mandates. We want our children to be the best that they can. Let's do more with less. maybe we have too much bureaucracy involved. We need to make sure we're working locally. School districts, school boards, etc.

Joey Smith - Would you fight for ensuring that proper time was given to each bill before it was voted on? Examples HB116 and HB477.

DAW: It's unusual for a bill of that magnitude to have the last-minute fine-tuning, but I was happy to repeal GRAMA based on the way it was pushed through.

SIEBACH: Our first idea is rarely the best. We need time to deliberate, to see if there's a better way of doing what we're doing.

LAYTON: I was under the impression Brad voted for HB477. <> I'm for transparency on all levels. I wouldn't support a measure to limit it. There are times with simple bills can go through quick, but not something of this magnitude.

JoDee Sumberg - We have the lowest student-to-administrator funding. All of our HS have same opportunity for UCAS. It's funded at state average. Alpine is funded at lowest average. How would you rectify the amount charter schools get? (I take it she is against charter schools.)

LAYTON: I need to study the issue.

DAW: I think they're great. It's 25% of replacement fund. I want to support charter schools. We have to move to equalized property tax. You'll have winners and losers.

SIEBACH: I love competition. I love charter schools.

Ann Tindell - All three of you tended for personal responsibility over safety. What if the motorcyclist gets splattered across the highway and wants someone else to pay the bill?

SIEBACH: If they're splattered across the road, there's not much to worry about. But if you ride a motorcycle, you have to have insurance. Trying to do a massive fix just kills liberty.

LAYTON: Assuming he's in the hospital, it's negligence on the individual's part. For me it's in the realm of defining it as negligence.

DAW: Jacob, auto insurance is liability, not catastrophic insurance, and trust me, we don't want a mandate. But the hospital will go after his insurance, maybe put a lien on his house, etc.

SIEBACH: I'm in no way in favor of mandate.

Jason ? - I have a friend who works for Utah and is covered by PEHP. The Parity Act, fed law, requires mental health to be treated like physical health, but PEHP is exempt from the law and denied him treatment, said he had to go to IHC. Why is it the state has the right to go thru loopholes while the rest of the private insurance can't?

LAYTON: Legislators should not be able to exempt themselves from laws they pass. Mental health is serious issue. The more brain research we do, the more we find physiological basis for crime and different behaviors.

DAW: Most insurance companies have ability to deny coverage of certain types of illnesses. I'd need to know more, it may or may not be covered. Come talk to me.

SIEBACH: I'd need further research on that, I'm not aware why things aren't covered. When you look at insurance as private industry, they can deny coverage for whatever.

-- One-minute closing comment

SIEBACH: I love the Constitution. I love my state, I love my family. I got back to indivdual rights, state sovereignty. God gave us our rightsd and we should stick to the ideals of the Founders. I'd love to be an inventor; let govt get out of the way.

LAYTON: In general, I'd say my desire is to provide good, solid, reasonable conservative representation to you. I would like to bring effectiveness and energy to the job, maybe some inter-party pushback. I'd like to repeal a bunch of laws. We need fewer laws, not more.

DAW: One of the bills I passed was a repealer that reduced the amount of laws we have on the books. My goal is to be the most successful legislator in the state. I've responded to everyone who's emailed me. Some of the best ideas for bills I've had have come from people in this room.

Utah Senator Debate

I'm a county delegate, so I was learning about county candidates tonight, but were I a state delegate, I would have attended this debate in person. I watched this streaming on Ustream, not live but I'll use the time-stamps for when it got to what.

7:03 - There are three candidates.  Chris Herrod, Orrin Hatch and Dan Liljenquist. Hatch is in the middle.  Is it just me or does that table look like it came from Pee-Wee's Playhouse?   From here on it's just easier to type Hatch, Dan and Chris.

7:05 - The streaming quality is pretty rough. This will be a challenge.

7:06 - Dan goes first, he says we need new leadership in DC.

7:07 - Hatch says he'll be the leader of the Senate Finance Committee, the most powerful committee in DC. Mitt Romney wants me there; I'll be there for him. I'm going to do it.

7:08 - Chris calls the national debt a natl security issue. We have a short window of opportunity to change the course of this country.

7:09 - 1ST QUESTION: What is your position on space exploration?

HATCH: Jake Garn and I are behind it. Obama's ruining it. Every dollar we spend in space, we get six bucks back in renovation. I don't want the Russians to have to take our astronauts into space.

CHRIS: It's appalling we have to rely on the Russians, but our problem is the national debt. I spent 3 years in the Soviet Union so it concerns me. The Russians don't have our best interest at heart.

DAN: You can't defend our country and the world w/o a strong space program. There are areas in our budget that we've known for 40 years are a problem that we've never fixed. (see what he did there?) I'll make sure we stay in space and protect our country.

HATCH: I don't need a 45-minute rebuttal (45 seconds, Senator...)

7:13 - The streaming quality is much better now.

7:14 - 2ND QUESTION - What is the greatest issue facing our nation and what would you do to solve it?

CHRIS: National debt. Look at my state legislative record. We formed Patrick Henry Caucus, made our lands an issue, fighting against fed govt to get our lands back.

DAN: Spending, by a country mile. I worked at Bain. First you fire the people who got you here. (good line) We could have a boom of energy if we'd tap our national natural resources. Our biggest problem is the entitlement problems we've ignored for 40 years. I passed the biggest entitlement reform in this state int he past couple years.

HATCH: I don't disagree w/ my colleagues. The Senate Finance Committee got us here and it's been run by Democrats and liberals my entire time in office. We've got to kill ObamaCare. (at this point let me say the reverb from the microphones has been terrible; kudos to all 3 for putting up with it.) Mitt Romney will be president, together we'll get these problems solved.

DAN: I've been all over the state. People ask me, "Dan, what's our good senator been doing?" You've been on SFC for 18 years, and youv'e expanded spending. What's going to be different next time? (applause)

HATCH: I guess you haven't seen who's been in charge of that SFC. Ernest Grisham said Hatch will be the most conservative leader of the SFC and he's doggone right. We'll get things under control, and Romney and Hatch will do it. (really marrying himself to Romney)

7:19 - Chris asks a rules questions and then we get 3RD QUESTION - Keystone Pipeline?

DAN: Explains the pipeline that'd come from Canada. Its our fed lands that have been locked up. Canada realizes they can export, but our policy has declared war on domestic oil production. Canada will now go to China. We should do everything we can to get that pipeline to come down. We need to open up our fed lands so we can produce oil as well.

HATCH: Pres. opposed Keystone even though it could have meant 100,000 jobs. We're going to turn it around. Utah is an oil-rich state. If we're able to produce our own oil, we'll lower gas prices. I'm on top of that, we're going to change it.

CHRIS: Some of the oil is already going to go to China. Keystone's question is do they spend one pipe or three? Petrol China will pass Exxon as the world's largest oil company. I've led the issue of land fights in Utah.

7:23 - Thomas Wright says we're going to take a break to adjust the mikes... (APPLAUSE!)

7:27 - 4TH QUESTION - Please xplain Common Core and do you think it'll be detremental?

CHRIS: It was initiated by states, but even if states developed it, fed govt gets a hold of it and controls the strings. Fed has said if you do CC, you can drop out of NCLB, but that means you have to do one or the other.

DAN: Education is a family and state issue. Education was never designed to be this federal way. Get rid of DOE, return money and control to states.

HATCH: If I had my way, we'd get rid of DOE. NCLB was one of Bush's first issues, I skeptically voted for it, but if I had my way, we'd get rid of the doggone thing.

CHRIS: One thing that unites us is opposition of NCLB, and yet whenever we try to get rid of it, we can't.

HATCH: I agree.

7:32 - 5TH QUESTION - What is the role of the fed govt and what will u do to reduce the trend of it becoming overly involved?

DAN: When u move so much power to DC, they maneuver to control more of your lives. It's been this generation and our US Senate that's run up the debt, that instuted ObamaCare, not a field in our lives that fed govt doesn't believe it should touch. The US Senate was designed to defend the states, I'll return power to the states.

HATCH: Just to make it clear, I didn't vote for DOE; that's wrong. I didn't vote for Fannie & Freddie, wrong, that's FreedomWorks lies. I agree with Dan; let's return power to states and families.

CHRIS: Unfortunately many think the Constitution is an antiquated document. They're wrong. My wife grew up in Soviet Union, she understands socialism leads to serfdom.

DAN: I'm not blaming one party; it's been all of us. Congress got into a game of Hungry Hungry Hippos with our money. We have spent every marble we have; it is all of our problem. We have got to fix DC, and do that, you've got to change the Senate.

HATCH: I agree we've got to change DC and we've got to change the Senate, but there's a small cadre that's been fighting for this my whole time in DC and you shouldn't blame us for what's been done by all those Democrats and liberal Republicans! (he looks angry at that one)

CHRIS: One important job of the Senator is if you don't have a majority you go out and make sure you get it. It's the 18-30 year olds that overwhelmingly went to Obama. We've got to teach our young people.

HATCH: I know I'm not supposed to get a second rebuttal but I'm going to do one anyway. I raised millions of dollars for conservatives and if it wasn't for me, we wouldn't have the conservatives we do!

7:38 - 6TH QUESTION - Hatch, you've voted for many bills that expand scope of fed govt. How can we know you'd be the right leader to reduce size and scope of fed govt?

HATCH: I've voted for very few bills that expand the size of govt. I voted against most of them. I'm the author of the proposed Balanced Budget Constitutional Amendment. I brought it to the floor 13 times. I passed it once under Reagan but the House killed it. I intend to work my guts out to get that passed. The fact is, some of us really do work hard to get this country out of these doldrums. I've voted 12,600 times in Senate; I can't look back on too many votes I regret. I have the highest position in Senate; Mitt Romney and I can turn this country around. (wow, how many times is he going drop Mitt's name?)

DAN: One of my proudest moments was watching you, Sen. Hatch, debate that amendment; I was in the gallery. I wish it would have passed too. You voted and championed Medicare Part D which added trillions to our debt. It is not lost on me that we're going to have to pay for that. You can't hold up Balanced Budget in one hand and then pass legislation that makes it impossible to pay for it in the other. (rousing audience applause)

HATCH: Wait just a second, I'm going to answer that. Don't be so enthusiastic!

CHRIS: First, I'm grateful for Hatch's service. You don't have to pass a Balanced Budget Amendment to write a balanced budget. I believe it's time for other people to have the opportunity to serve.

HATCH: Personally I believe it's time for Utah to have the opportunity and that's what I'll give them as leader of the SFC. Part D has helped thousands of seniors get prescription durgs and now people are living longer. (i.e. vote for me or seniors will die) It came in at less than it was projected to be and it came in as order of states.

7:44 - Thomas Wright: "Sen. Hatch, that was your second rebuttal, so I'm going to let Dan have a 2nd rebuttal and then I'm going to go back to the rules and one rebuttal." (Wright's doing a good job).

DAN: I don't have a problem with Part D. If it came in at 43% less than expected, that means you were expecting $22 trillion in debt and we only came in at $16. Doesn't seem like that good of a deal. It's a little exasperating to realize those debts. Soc Security and Medicare are bankrupt, and it's going to fall to my generation to pay for it. (applause)

CHRIS: It comes back to personal responsibility. I support GOP when they're right and criticize them when they're wrong. We need to correct the GOP when they're wrong, not just blindly support them.

7:46 - 7TH QUESTION - What will you do about immigration?

CHRIS: I've experienced immigration, having been married in Ukraine, I have a business partner who's a black Ethiopian Jew, a sister-in-law who's South Korean, and yet when I talk about reforming immigration, I've been called a racist, a fascist, etc. There's many things that need to be addressed. My immigration policy is the same as Mitt Romney's. (a-ha!) We need to make the front gate as wide as possible and seal off the back gate. My business partner has lost relatives becuz they were denied legal immigration. Ethiopia's standard of living is 1/15 of Mexico's. Amnesty isn't fair.

HATCH: I've done more about immigration than anyone back there. I brought the 287g program to Utah. I was able to get an immigration court in Utah. I could go on, but I know that unless we control our border, we won't be able to solve these problems. We should provide a way for them to play by the rules. No amnesty, they have to go to the back of the line.

7:50 - 8TH QUESTION - Sen. Liljenquist, why did you miss almost a quarter of the votes in the state senate?

DAN: So glad you've asked that. Some of u may have seen one of the $300,000 worth of ads by FreedomPath, making it look like i was off golfing or something. I was there working on pension reform and Medicaid reform. Millions of dollars of lobbying money against it. I was crafting, writing, fighting for those bills. If a vote was close, they'd call me back in, but all the ones I missed weren't close at all or unanimous. I was elected to get things done and those bills will save this state billions.

HATCH: With pension reform, we still owe billions, and let me tell you, I can walk and chew gum at the same time. (*crickets*) I have a 97% voting record over 36 years. (ugh, what a weak argument. You're a full-time senator; he's a part-time senator). I think it's an important issue.

CHRIS: I was going to stay silent on this, but this illustrates why it's important to have someone who's been in a state senate. There's a big difference between state senate and US senate. I will defend Dan on this. (applause) Here's the reason: in a manner of minutes you can miss 3 votes. In DC they have 20-30 minutes per vote. To say you can compare DC to the state is simply unfair.

HATCH: I still think- I still think-! I still think you're elected to vote. (breaking the rules again...)

DAN: I've received natl awards for state legislator of the year. You're not just there to vote; you're there to lead. That's what I did. I did not make this an issue. How many votes did you miss this week, this year? By my count, you've missed 30% of the votes this year.

HATCH: No I haven't.

7:55 - 9TH QUESTION - from Thomas Wright, "This is my question. What is your favorite part of the GOP platform and why?"

CHRIS: The part about the Constitution and limited govt. I spent 5 of my years outside the US. It's truly an inspired document. Upholding its principles is by far the most important part.

DAN: It's hard to argue with this. It's neat to swear to uphold the Constitution. The govt doesn't get to grant rights. It doesn't get to redistribute wealth. The GOP is true to that platform and those principles. We were the party of the liberation of slaves, the party of fiscal responsibility. I support the platform.

HATCH: I want to support my colleagues, I agree with them 100%. I want to get unrid of unconstitutional bills like ObamaCare, but they covered it very well.

7:58 - 10TH QUESTION - Is there a difference between leadership and seniority, and if so, what's the difference?

DAN: Absolutely. This race may come down to this one question. Do we feel forced to vote for the same people into the same system over and over, or is it time for new leaders in DC? Leadership trumps seniority every time. I think everyone here is grateful in 1976 when the argument was made that this state couldn't afford to have two freshman Senators, that they rejected it and elected [Hatch] to office. He's done a fantastic job. (That'll be on Hatch's next mailer: "He's done a fantastic job." - Sen. Dan Liljenquist) But it's time to send new leaders. I have the skills and ability to change DC and I intend to do so.

HATCH: I hardly ever use the word seniority becuz there's good seniority and bad seniority. Let me bring it home to u. I talk about experience, ability to bring people together back there. In 1989, when they were closwing bases, I'm glad Jake Garn and I had 15 years of experience in the Senate. If we'd had two freshman senators, they would have closed Hill Air Force Base. (exactly the argument one guy made at our precinct's caucus)

CHRIS: Why were we even in front of the Supreme Court last week? It was a sophomore legislator (Wimmer) that passed that bill that pushed the fight, despite resistance to the bill. You can get individual together and have that. The seniority system in DC is one of the biggest problems. Leadership elections are every bit as important as seniority.

DAN: You and Jake Garn pushed against Jimmy Carter when he tried to close it, but you did that it your first term. There is no politician in this country that is too big to fail. You did a fantastic job, especially in your first term.

HATCH: I'm in a position to benefit Utah in a fantastic way. I agree freshman senators can be effective. We have Rand Paul and Ron Johnson, and you could name a couple others... (you can tell he knows he's leaving someone out)... and Mike Lee! (there it is), but if the movement in 1989 had happened in our first term, we couldn't have stopped it. The issue will come up again in 2013 and 2015.

CHRIS: We need to talk about good governance. Take the politics out of allocation. Texas and California lost bases, Utah didn't, that's good governance, and HAFB will stay open regardless.

8:05 - 11TH QUESTION - What will you do to promote Utah's autonomy?

HATCH: let me go back and make sure I've terrified enough military personnel and seniors that HAFB will absolutely close unless you give me a seventh term. Experience does count. Now for the economy. 1) Kill ObamaCare. 2) Pass a balanced budget Amendment. 3) Reform entitlements. 4) Control the spending! All of those problems are dealt with in the SFC and I intend to be Chairman!

CHRIS: I'm proudest of the land bill I passed that said the fed govt doesn't have the right to tell you how to grow your own food. Feds said they had ability to regulate personal farms and gardens. We need to push back and make sure the state remains sovereign.

DAN: I ran on entitlement reform, and I passed it on Medicaid. We are the first state in the country to cap Medicaid spending and return it to the states. It's cause celebre to say "now is the time to reform entitltements. I've done it.

HATCH: There's a real difference between having 75% GOP control in state senate and only having one or two more in the Senate. When I'm in the SFC, I'll get things done.

CHRIS: I'll toot my own horn a little more. The PHC and I helped get our lands back. The Fed govt is forbidden to own more then ten miles square... I'll have to explain it later, I'm out of time.

DAN: (suddenly his mike is off and he talks for a while so I had a hard time understanding him but apparently the audience could hear it because the applause was deafening. but there was something about him passing his Medicaid bill unanimously)

HATCH: I would really like that.

8:11 - 12TH QUESTION - HAFB is the largest employer in Utah. What could you do to keep it from closing.

CHRIS: It comes back to good governance. If HAFB wasn't the best base, we should be willing to sacrifice, but it's one of the most valuable bases in the nation. We have to take the politics out of it. If we rely on one individual to keep the base, what happens when that individual leaves? We have to have good governance.

DAN: (holy crap, it's just his mike. Sorry, I can't understand what's he saying, then suddenly it's loud) HAFB is the most relevant base in the country; it will not be going away.

HATCH: Jim Hansen has said all over Utah that you'd better have hatch if you want to keep HAFB. Guess who comes when I call to keep HAFB. New York or California would steal it in a NY minute. I fight every single say in the Senate to keep it.

CHRIS: Leadership is more important as seniority. Mitch McConnell needs to no longer be leader. I will ask whoever gets my votes two things. 1) Get rid of seniority system. 2) Make sure all proper procedures are followed on base closings. (applause)

DAN: I live in Davis County. I know the value of Hill. Hatch & Garn defended Hill in their 1st terms. Rob Bishop sits on the Armed Services committee. We can keep Hill safe. To argue that you have to send someone back for their 37th thru 42nd year in the Senate... The Senate has shown freshmen Senators can get things done. We can protect Hill.

8:16 - 13TH QUESTION - How would you work with UT legislature to further states rights?

DAN: That's one of the main reasons I'm running. We've been blackmailed by our own money for far too long. I have the majority of state senators endorsing me openly becuz we don't have the relationship with our natl Senators that we should. I will work with UT legislature to ensure states rights.

HATCH: I'll work with our state legislature. I want to commend these two young men for the work they've done. We got to bring Utah to the forefront.

CHRIS: Thank you, Sen. Hatch. At the age of 46, it's been a while since I've been called a young man so I appreciate it. This is one of those things, it's difficult to talk about our record in one minute. We formed the PHC three years ago, got the movement started nationwide. I truly believe that states are the solution to the problem. Put those powers that US senators have back to Utah.

DAN: One experience I want to share. Hatch called to congratulate me on passing pension reform. I've lectured in over 40 states on how to do their states' pension reform. hatch put out a mailer earlier this year on how he's going to pass federal legislation telling states how to reform their pensions. He didn't talk to a single member of the Utah legislature, didn't talk to me, to the governor. It's not up to the fed govt to tell us how to reform our pensions; we've already done it.

HATCH: State leaders have been in my office many times. We've always taken their suggestions. I pay strict attention to what our state senators do. I'm proud of our state. I'm proud of (missed his name) and Ken Ivory.

CHRIS: Look at the lands bill I passed with Ken Sumsion. Our Founding Fathers recognized the fed govt should not own that much land, it would have too much power.

8:23 - Thomas Wright thanks some people, then let's them give their closing arguments.

CHRIS: I was in former USSR, and I saw two cops harrassing two children selling bread, and they were arrested. i followed those cops, then I was picked up and hauled to the station. They must have thought I was the biscuit pimp, but I saw that I couldn't solve all the problem of Soviet corruption, but I promised myself that if I saw those problems arise here, I would stand up. We do live in the day where we have to pledge our lives and our sacred honor. if you send me back to DC, I will stand up for your inalienable rights and the great state of Utah.

HATCH: Look, this is definitely going to be my last term. (some giggles) No it is. But it'll be the best doggone six years you've ever seen. Mitt Romney is making sure I get there. He understands the importance of the chair of SFC. They wouldn't dare take me on for HAFB. 60% of spending goes through that committee. Mitt Romney wants me there.

DAN: Outside of my family and religion, I have three passions: economics, law, business. I worked at bain and I worked on an airline turnaround. I did similar work at ACS. (Whoa, he did? I'd like to know more on that.) I used my skills in legislature, and DC needs a turnaround team. I think I can lead and make a difference.

And we're done.

I really liked and appreciated the chance to hear these candidates and see them together.

I'd say Dan Liljenquist won the debate, Chris Herrod was a very close second, and Orrin Hatch was a distant third.

Dan did a good job of demonstrating how freshmen can accomplish a lot in a short amount of time, and he did the best at going after hatch and illustrating how wrong it is to say we have to give a senator seven six-year terms before he can accomplish anything.

I'd been turned off by some Chris Herrod supporters (most of them anonymous online folk, granted), but I was impressed with him. Seems like a good guy, interesting background, classy. Sure, it's one debate, but I could see Dan or Chris as our next US Senator from Utah.

Orrin Hatch played on people's fears tonight. Re-elect me or you're doomed. Hill Air Force Base will vanish. I will have the power if you send me back. It feels like emotional blackmail.  And he illustrated his power by boasting about who he's summoned to his office, or interrupting Dan, or breaking the debate rules. His "I can walk and chew gum at the same time" line was a ka-thud.

And if Thomas Wright decided he wanted to run in 2014 for, say, US Congressman of whatever district he lives in, he'd do quite well.

Daily Show on the Trayvon Martin shooting

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart
Get More: Daily Show Full Episodes,Political Humor & Satire Blog,The Daily Show on Facebook

Brilliant handling of the story.

Herman Cain's rabbit ad

Last Night's Utah GOP Caucus

Sen. Hatch can turn that frown upside-down after last night's results.

Here's what I saw at our meeting in Orem last night.

Every time I go to the GOP caucus, our turnout is larger than expected.  The first one I went to in this area in 2004, we had maybe 20 people.  By 2010, we were up to 80.  Last night, OR28 had 171 credentialled voters show up.

Now I'd planned on running for something, but my wife couldn't come, and my sister had to leave before we got to real voting, and some of my neighbors left... It started at 7:00pm but it was almost 9:00pm by the time we elected our precinct chair.

We had five people run for precinct chair.  Three of the five were vociferous Orrin Hatch supporters, and I'd say about two-thirds of the people in the room were that.  When it came to question time, the only thing the people seemed to want to know was if they'd support Orrin Hatch for a seventh term and if they're affiliated with anyone.  The affliliation question was really about FreedomWorks, which has been running a lot of "Retire Orrin Hatch" ads.  (Personally I don't care for FreedomWorks.)

Pro-Hatch candidates won Chair and Vice-Chair.  I went ahead and ran for Vice-Chair.  I didn't expect to win it, but some of the people who were going to vote for me for State Delegate left.  Then came the election for Secretary/Treasurer.  We had 13 run for State Delegate, including me, and I was one of the lower vote-getters.  I get the feeling if I'd been pro-Hatch, I would have done better, and there were some candidates who softened their "Retire Hatch" stances.  I did say we're representing you, not ordering you, so if the vast majority in this precinct wants Hatch, I'd vote for Hatch.

I believe 10 ran for County Delegate, and I got in on first ballot.

I've been hearing similar stories from all across Utah.  Caucus attendance doubled what it did in 2010, and those extra people were all for Hatch.  Before last night, I would have though for sure Hatch would face a primary run-off, but considering how many state delegates won their election on a "Keep Hatch in Power" platform, I don't think it'll come down to that anymore.

So why such an attendance jump?  Well, there was very good publicity for caucus night.  It's a presidential election year, so people are excited to support Mitt Romney.  It's a Senate race year, and in 2010, Bob Bennett and his supporters were shocked he didn't even make it out of convention.  Orrin Hatch has spent the past two years planning for last night.  Last night was more important for his campaign than the convention, the primary, or election night.  Whoever the Republican nominee is for Senate in Utah can usually pencil in 63% of the vote, and everything after that is a signal as to how strong a candidate he is.

I was not an "Anybody But Hatch" guy, but the past few months made it difficult to remain that way.  I've liked what I heard from Dan Liljenquist, and I hear good things about Chris Herrod, and so I've been able to embrace more and more that we'd have a good candidate with whom to replace Hatch.  Hatch's support for the NDAA and SOPA/PIPA and extending the Patriot Act have just been signals to me how he's okay to nickel-and-dime away freedom, add some more guilty-until-proven-innocent laws to the books.

Also when he originally ran for Senator in 1976, he said abouty his three-term incumbent opponent, "What do you call a Senator who's served for 18 years?  You call him home."  Now he wants to extend his 36 years of service to 42 years.  Hm.

In 2010, it was about the Tea Party.

In 2012, when I was at the rec center this morning, I overheard two old men talking.

One: "The Republican Party has to watch out for that Tea Party. I'd never go to one of their rallies."

Two: "They want to get rid of taxes.  We're $17 trillion in debt! How we going to pay that off with no taxes?"

After last night, I also wonder if they're going to draw up smaller precincts.  With that type of participation, it's something for the Party heads to think about.

BUT!.....

My focus now is on being the most informed county delegate I can be.  Between now and April 14, I'm going to go to my meetings, read the campaign literature, talk to as many people running as I can.

Romney wins Hawaii...

... but the real headlines will be about Mitt Romney coming in third in Alabama and Mississippi.  Rick Santorum and Newt Gingrich drawled their best while the cheesy grits fan knew if the money was even, he'd get blown out of the water.  Ironically, Romney may wind up getting more delegates than Santorum from last night.

Now I caught part of Newt Gingrich's "concession" speech, where he spun it as victory and bashed Romney.  It's clear that Gingrich hates Romney, and he can't hide it.  He flaunts his spite.  He also revealed why he will not drop out.  Sure, if he did drop out, maybe the ultraconservative base flocks around Santorum, but say only 70% of them go to Santorum and the rest go to Romney.  At the pace the states are going, Romney could still get to that magical 1144 number.

But if Newt stays in, he vacuums up delegates.  Not as much as Romney or Santorum, but it's enough to possibly keep Mitt from getting 1144.  He's going all in on getting to a brokered convention.  Naturally he's delusional to think if it got to such a point, that the Republican delegates would pick him.  And I do think part of him believes that, but there's nothing more important to Newt than to make sure Mitt Romney is not the GOP nominee.

If Newt Gingrich or Rick Santorum somehow wind up with the nomination, I wouldn't vote for them.

Game Change: HBO stands for Help Barack Obama

Game Change debuted on HBO today.  I currently don't have HBO; I'll probably get it for a month so I can watch Season 2 of Game of Thrones, and in that time I may catch Game Change.

I emphasize once again: I loved the book Game Change.  John Heilemann & Mark Halperin's book about the 2008 presidential election was wild and trashy and suspenseful, even though we all knew the outcome.  I was thrilled when HBO announced they were going to make a movie out of it.  While HBO's political movies tend to make Democrats the heroes and Republicans the villains, Game Change was bipartisan excitement, and two-thirds of it would be about the fascinating trio of frontrunner Hillary Clinton, fresh blood Barack Obama, and delusional sociopath John Edwards.

Alas, HBO has revealed itself as Obama's own SuperPAC by cutting all of that out of the movie.  HBO, aka Help Barack Obama, elected to make Sarah Palin the main character, even though she is at best the fifth most prominent character from the book.  I would venture this was a calculated move by HBO, as they guessed Palin would be running for president and this would come out at a good time to weaken her in the primaries, remind people of all her flaws.

I don't care if they say it's a fair take, or it's accurate.  I am fine with them making the McCain-Palin part of the story a two-hour movie. But it bothers me to no end that they didn't tell the other four hours.  It should have been a miniseries.  If they needed to trim it down to two hours then it should have been trimmed down to its main plot:  Hillary Clinton vs. Barack Obama.

What can I say about HBO, or Heilemann & Halperin, or writer Danny Strong, or director Jay Roach?  It was cowardly, lazy, calculated and craven to give it the title of Game Change and then only tell the Palin story.  It's a bunch of Democrats washing away all the sins on their side to rehash the sins of the Republicans.  Of course it's politically motivated.  Of course it's partisan.

I'm no Palin fan.  I'm relieved she's not running for President.  But I deeply resent what HBO did with a book I enjoyed, and I deeply resent the authors for selling their souls and letting it happen.  If they make Game Change II and tell the rest of the story, maybe that'll be okay.  But I guarantee it wouldn't come out before November 2012.

Here's Byron York's take on the real bias of Game Change.

Stop Joseph Kony 2012

I was Viewer #65,969,792. I really hope this works. I would love to see a movement like this succeed.